A very good article. The truth is summarised in these sentences you have written: "Is this an unfair and one-sided peace by taking into account Russian security concerns and largely ignoring valid security concerns of Ukraine and its great suffering? Yes, it is. But this is also the consequence of losing a war".
I want to ask Glenn (or anybody) whether this should also apply to Israel and the Palestinians, in particular Gaza. Trump, it seems to me, is being consistent. He is recognising that wars are about winning and losing and not about fairness. He also recognises that wars kill and peace is better for ordinary people no matter the rhetoric of their leaders. He states that Gazans should accept defeat and move elsewhere.
I don't like that but it seems to me a reality given that for Israel Trump will not end support as he sees this as the US having supported the winning side. He will end support for Ukraine as he sees this as supporting the losing side.
I've tried posing this to others on various YT channels but no-one answers. Am I missing something crucial? Because the people who appear happy for peace in Ukraine on these Trump terms are not happy with the Trump terms for Gaza. Yet there is a consistency here and Israel too has security concerns.
Are you seriously trying to say what happened in Gaza was a war? I'll remind you Palestinians don't have aircraft, 2,000 lb bombs, air defences, tanks, military vehicles or an army for that matter. So how can you try & say it was a war? Say it like it was, it was genocide purposely targeting civilians, hospitals, schools, refugee camp sites, withholding international aid the lists go on & on. Do you believe if you were on the receiving end of what has been done on Gaza. You'd call it a war?
Thank you for engaging with me. I can understand your anger at my terminology and even more so with my argument here. I should perhaps have used the word tragedy rather than war, but I think the word war applies better because I am referring to winners and losers and the reality of such tragedies.
I can see that what Israel has done is commit a terrible tragedy and that many in the West are complicit and the whole thing is very one sided, ...... but given where we are taking into account the very firm US support, as confirmed by Trump, that Israel has I cannot see this ceasefire continuing beyond the point where all Israeli hostages are released. Then what now is the realistic solution for the poor people of Gaza? Should they continue as Ukrainians have to date fighting and dying?
I cannot realistically see the Palestinians winning this "war" if the US continues with its support for Israel. The size of the tragedy, the genocide will simply grow. And as far as I can tell no-one else is capable of stepping in in a meaningful way to prevent this. All this time I had been hoping something would happen to stop all the killing, the maiming, the destruction ...... permanently.
And right now, this Trump plan seems to be all that's on offer.
The only way Israel/US "win" in Gaza is if they kill everyone there. Look what the US did to Vietnam. The Vietcong dug in, persisted, and won. Hamas has done the same thus far against far greater odds. Israeli society is more likely to collapse before they can finish the job.
Thank you for your response. That is a possibility. But it will entail far more Palestinians being killed and lots more destruction.
In a sense I think you are saying the side that "wins" is the one who fights until the other side collapses whilst also sustaining significant loss themselves. In Israel's case this may be more economic loss and in Gaza's more people and infrastructure.
Perhaps then, no-one really wins at all. It's more than tragic.
I guess I'm a peace-nik at heart and find the dying of so many very difficult to take.
I am all for peace, but I agree with your above critics that in the case of Palestine, it is a genocide going on, which is a war crime and a crime against humanity. The World Court has said so and we have all watched it happen. I support the Palestinians. If you think there is any equivalency between what Israel is doing to the Palestines and what the Resistance is doing in REAL self-defense, I think you are immoral. Israel must be punished for its crimes and the U.S. must cut off all support for the murder of thousands by the IDF and the Zionist fanatics. That's it and the Palestinians have indicated many times that it is non-negotiable. I agree with them. You are no peacenik if you support genocide.
Thank you for your remarks. You are of course perfectly entitled to think of me as you wish, but I think you do me a dis-service in suggesting I support a genocide or that I am immoral.
Thanks for your perspective. I understand what you are getting at and will have to sit still with it for sometime to see how it eventually "sits" with me. It sure adds a twist to any narrative out there... Maybe you are the one who is "seeing things clearly". My knee-jerk thought is the Palestinians need a break.
Thanks Jeremy. It's nice you are prepared to mull over what I have written and have grasped where I'm coming from.
Some of the comments have been a bit bruising, but that's fair enough when you ask people to consider something that's not been articulated elsewhere. I hadn't quite thought of it as jolting people, but I can now see that I have!
Some comments, though, have been very interesting, and others like yours, most kind.
First, as Davy points out below, Zionist annihilation of Palestine is not a war, it's a colonial genocide.
Second, the suggested solution in Ukraine does not involve rounding up and moving all Ukrainians to Bulgaria, or Poland.
Third, many Ukrainians will welcome being merged into Russia--they are, historically, ethnically, culturally, linguistically part of Russia and are Russians.
Ukrainians fell in with a bad crowd (NATO, UK, USA) and were empowered, and prodded, to make stupid decisions.
A much more apt comparison of Palestine and Ukraine is:
The Zionists in West Asia are similar to NATO/UK/USA in Ukraine--they are outside usurpers (some very few with genealogical origins in the area) who have empowered and prodded Israel to make stupid decisions.
They are the interlopers causing and waging non-stop violence against the natives. If they would leave, then the locals would settle things on their own.
It's not Palestinians who should be re-located. It's the Zionists. How about a nice desert in the Australian outback?
Thank you for your response. Of course, every war, every human event is never a carbon copy of another. I had thought of the one big difference you mention: ... that Ukrainians are not being forced to relocate and can stay under Russian rule if they choose to.
And yes, it's the Israelis who are the interlopers. In my moments of wishing the past to have been different I often think Israel should have had a bit of US territory but of course the US wanted that interloper in the Middle East to do its bidding. So we are where we are.
Nothing is at all fair about this situation.
You are being unkind to Australia! If there was the slightest chance of Israelis being relocated I would suggest the US. Don't they have deserts too? :-)
But seriously, although I understand and appreciate the differences you have pointed out, you appear not to have taken account of the solid US support for Israel. It seems watertight. Trump, in this respect is the same as Biden. This is the really big difference between Ukraine and Israel.
As I'm really a bit of a peace-nik I can't help but see a plus to Trump's plan which allows for Palestinians to survive .... elsewhere and in security. Even if (as another person has said to me) Israel's economy collapses as the Palestinians bravely fight on and somehow win ...... they will never have that security unless the US gives in. I suppose I just don't see that happening. And that fighting on will come at a terrible cost.
Forcibly relocating a human population won't result in "security."
Palestinians are not sheep or cattle complacently moving from one grazing ground to the next. Neither are Jordanians or Egyptians (or Australians) just passive receptors of Zionist relocation operations.
No. There is one irritant in the body of West Asia--one arrogant and attacking foreign body constantly invading and expanding.
American support of Zionism, from both parties, is purchased and coerced. As we're seeing now, introspection and auditing, bringing dirty little secrets to light, are great disinfectants. Who would have ever thought USAID would dissolve? It won't take much digging or auditing to reveal the extent of Zionist control over American politicians and government. MIGA ain't MAGA.
The differences between the very poor examples you used are glaring - you must be wearing 😎.
Another fact is that the Palestinians aren't going to leave. They will fight and you, that is - the US will have to kill them all. Israel at least will be happy about that.
How does the US plan to keep Gaza - it's obviously going to give it to Israel!
Another point - Israel did not win this 'genocide'.
Israel had to withdraw because of the unacceptable level of IDF fatalities.
Hamas is even stronger, the Palestinians have not been cowed. They really will die on their land. They won't move voluntarily because they know they won't be allowed back.
Don't ever accept what is evil. What NATO/EU/US/Zelenski did to ethnic Russians and attempted to do to Russia was evil. Russia did not accept this and we, the US, failed. I agree it's better to accept this outcome. What the Israelis did, and are still doing, to the Palestinians since 1947 is evil. It's genocide, Zionism and fascism. This can never be accepted, regardless whether the US supports it or not. Better that the whole world experience nuclear Armageddon than such evil be accepted. Trump would be more consistent if he stood for what is right rather than might.
By your illogic, society should just let organized crime and drug lords take over after initial resistance fails to stop them. Fuzzy overgeneralizations such as yours are the death of logic.
You're either ignorant, naive, or not very bright. Next time, try to analyze the situation from a moral context. The Israelis justify genocide with some overgeneralized historical imperative. From that standpoint, Trump's support for the Israelis is both immoral and illogical.
I also think the quoted paragraph is a bottom line. As for comparing Gaza with Ukraine, both Israel and Ukraine could have had security if there was no meddling from the West starting after the end of WWII ( if not earlier). Everything else is different, as Davy and others pointed out.
Imhpo, the recent events have proven that in contrast to all the idealistic (often deceitful and fals) preaching, the reality is that "Might Makes Right".
The Russo-Ukainian War was partly the consequence of those idealistic, self-assertive elites that did not want to (1) Listen to, (2) acknowledge, (3) negotiate the frequently repeated and more and more vociferously expressed Russian frustrations (see Putin speech at 2007 MSC). "Putin is bluffing", they said. Eventually Russia put the tanks forward and hit the Table "No More!". :Putin is weak". they said (Russia wasn't). "Russia is weakened" they said (in 2024 Russian growth rate was higher than the US or EU growth rates).
Going to Gaza. While many try to make comparisons (based on Moral & Ethical principles - which are reasonable, but not necessarily realistic) with the Russo-Ukrainian War, such comparison are again idealistic and do not consider the realistic principle that "Might Makes Right". I personally don't see where the very tragic Palestinian situation will develop (too many local and international players and uncertainties). But again "Might Makes Right". So we'll have to wait and see while we express our opinion about that situation (they matter, a very tiny bit).
Thank you Ferenc. The reality is most unfortunately as you so succinctly sum it up: "Might makes right" and it has been this way for a considerable portion of humankind's existence.
I too am at a loss as to how the Palestinian situation can be resolved. It seems my trying to see some merit in the Trump solution has met with some very firm kickback in the comments here. Only to be expected. It's a very emotional issue.
Glen Deisen. What an excellent article - as Meirshiemer put it all those years ago……. Ukraine will be led down the primrose path to destruction. Quite so. We had to endure 3 long years of listening to fools & knaves serving up the kool-aid, and drinking copiously from the cup themselves. Politicians, media, NGOs, thinktanks, the whole panoply of the Empire of Lies. Even in alt media I’ve had to listen to clowns talking about Russians fighting with shovels, Russians looting toilets to take back home, Russia is a gas station, Russian soldiers are all drunk, North Koreans, blah blah blah…… Ukraine will win! Ukraine is winning! It’s a stalemate! Ukraine lost. Ooops. Population halved, 800k dead, millions with serious injuries, huge productive areas lost forever, no NATO, no security guarantees (except those provided by Russia). The very survival of Ukraine as a state now waits on the pleasure of the hard-nosed realpolitik apparatchiks of the Russian state. Bet the average Ukrainian wishes that an Azov sniper had taken out Nuland at Maidan.
Jennie: Yes, you are missing something……. Hamas won, not Israel. Palestinians know that, and so do the Arab states. More importantly, Israelis know too - read the English translations of their media). I said at the very start of this latest iteration of the struggle, that when it was over, thousands of Hamas fighters would come out of the rubble, and the victory parades would commence. Is important to revisit the aims & objectives of each side, at the start. Every Hamas objective has been obtained (ceasefire, IDF withdrawal, civilians to return to where they were living before it started, expansion of international aid). All that was in the peace agreement that both sides signed. Israel’s objectives were a) completely destroy Hamas, b) move the entire Gaza civilian population out of the territory, and c) release all its ‘hostages’ thru military means. The only thing Israel succeeded in was committing genocide, increasing support for Hamas, and earning the undying contempt and even hatred of billions of people, and the vast majority of states across the globe. Now, having said all that, I do expect hostilities to restart this weekend, since Israel has been violating the terms of the ceasefire (it always does), and Hamas have called them out - suspending prisoner releases. My guess is that Netanyahu and his genocidal Govt, cannot bear the drip drip humiliation of 3 prisoners being released weekly, with all the attendant ballyhoo, goodie bags, and released ‘hostages’ getting straight onto Israeli TV to regale the audience with tales of how well they were treated. Changing the terms of the ceasefire by suddenly demanding that all Israeli prisoners be released at once, this weekend, kinda does suggest that. I’m not sure why the IDF thinks it can do any better now, than it did over the previous 16 months - it threw everything at Hamas, in a tiny 25x5 mile strip of land, and ended up strengthening Hamas (ask Anthony Blinken), and weakening the IDF. Of course they bombed the place to rubble, but any resumption of that is just rearranging the rubble. Gaza is a mostly urban environment, and for that kind of combat you need top notch Infantry (see Russia), not the diaper army Israel put in there. So, the war will go on, and Hamas will still be there this time next year, Israel’s internal divisions will have metastasised further (all those ‘hostage’ families that had the rug pulled from under them by Netanyahu), another 500 IDF will be dead (5,0000 with life changing injuries), Israel will have been found to have committed genocide at the ICJ, further ICC warrants will have been issued for Israeli officials, and still none of Israel’s objectives will have been achieved - just a great big hole, dug even deeper.
Ukraine is a case in point Jennie. That benighted country has been comprehensively Empire wrecked. Just like Meirshiemer said it would be, all those years ago. 🫣
I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said there Jennie. A bit of clarification……. when I say Hamas won, I say that only in the sense that they have won this particular 15 month battle. I do believe the effect of this is to weaken Israel at the strategic level, but yes, strategically it is a stalemate of course. As long as Israel remains as a settler colony of a superpower, then it cannot on any realistic timeframe, be eradicated. How ever many guns & bombs it needs, they will always be provided; however many loan guarantees, they will always be provided; however catastrophically the economy collapses, it will always be propped up; and however much diplomatic isolation builds up, it will always be protected. However…….. I see two ultimately fatal problems winding their way down the rocky road. 1: Emigration. Israel is now a seriously divided country (and I’m only talking about Jewish Israelis here), it’s not a safe place to raise families, and it’s ceasing to be a liberal democracy. All the evidence I’ve seen seems to point to around 500,000 having left, and I think many will not come back. Perhaps a long slow demographic death may be baked in now, with the most productive citizens saying goodbye, leaving a hard core settler/religious base - many of whom do not work, and many of who will not fight. 2: Straightforwardly, the general collapse of a US Empire butting up against serious Imperial overstretch, apocalyptic levels of debt, and a developing geo-strategic situation that Thucydides would have recognised very well.
Thank you again for another set of well considered observations Steve.
Yes, that's something to take account of: that the divisions within the Jewish Israeli population will eventually lead to its slow collapse. I had not realised that 500,000 may have already left. You are right: many will not go back to a country that offers so little security.
In some ways that's like the Ukrainians that have become refugees. Many of those will not return for similar reasons.
Thank you for your very considered reply Steve. Yes many people think as you do about what has developed over the last 15/16 months. And many believe that the war will go on. That I suppose is what is so tragic ........ that in this seemingly never ending battle both sides will continue to suffer until one side completely collapses. I find it difficult to see where we are as being a win for Hamas. It seems to me that we have more of a stalemate.
It also seems to me that if we discount Trump's relocation attempts at saving Palestinian lives what you and others suggest will be the outcome ..... and most are hoping it will mean the end of Israel albeit at a very steep price for the Palestinians.
Nearly everyone responding to me agrees with you ..... and believe that this is a price the Palestinians are prepared to pay.
Losing territories? The coup junta has waged war and killed more than 15000 people in the Donbass region, so why should the Kiev regime regain Donbass. not to say the Crimean Peninsula, whose inhabitants have almost all voted for affiliation with Russia, and like Donbass has been threatened and shelled by the US and EU backed coup regime?
And "Russia´´s "illegal and unprovoked invasion"." What happened before Russia finally intervented - after 8 years?
An illegitimate coup in which a legal democratically elected and OSCE-monitored government was overthrown.
Don´t the EU establishment, the right wing, the centre and the so-called left know this?
And does this allied criminal gang not believe that Russia, like the the EU, have the same legitimate right to security?
The dust of confusion about the Trump administration policy concerning the Ukrainian and Russian war are lifting to the bright side and leaving Zelensky, the Biden’s, EU and UK in shame.
It is the shame of the US (!!!) and only after that the shame of Zelensky, Biden, EU and UK!!
It was the US that pushed (against the opposition of the EU) the NATO Membership of Ukraine at the April.2008 NATO Summit. It was the US that placed CIA bases in Ukraine. It was the US that pushed its EU mignons to support this crazy nationalistic frenzy. It was the US that demonized Russia and made it into an Evil Empire. UK and the EU just bent over to the US will. Now they are left out to dry.
I believe some of them EU mignons bent over even farther that what they were asked. Too happy to serve their master and to eager to be rid of this Poutine who set such a bad exemple for the European populace.
Probably true. But that is a "guiding principle" of our culture: "Serve at the Pleasure of the Master" and even beyond, find his desires and satisfy them "beyond and above". Especially when you have a society that - through a complex system of "selections" - elects pathological Narcissists and Sociopaths as Maters, that wish to receive and rewards "extreme flattery" and servilism.
This is so good. arrogant american moralizing has been the bane of the world since Lincoln, who was. master in tarting up immoral purposes with “moral” language. no wonder the USA is such a shitty nation, with that man of blood considered an exemplar.
Leave it to Trump to find the best way not to take the “L” by siding with the winner, Russia. It is almost God like looking down from 10,000 feet and stating the obvious because none of this was his doing. Now he is sweeping away all the destruction that lies before him and demanding the Big Loser, Ukraine, pay the U.S. back for misrepresentation and telling them no money for reconstruction will be forthcoming. The terms he has dealt Ukraine so far even exceed what has been demanded by Russia as he kicks that sick and dying dog Ukraine down the road and into the arms of Russia for failing to deliver on their ridiculous lies. Europe is complicit and is now suffering as well and the punishment for them has just begun with Greenland on the menu.
«…The Europeans have learned to speak and frame all issues in the language of morality...»
Here I’d say no, it’s the Europeans who originated this practice.
Under the disguise of morality, virtue and faith, Europeans savagely subjugated and colonized most of the planet, including North America.
For example Trump talks about owning Greenland and that’s crasss….but let’s first understand that Denmark is there owning the place and claiming to be “serving” the Greenlanders by making it a part of the Danish empire, which one included, St Thomas and St John in the what is now the US Virgin Islands colony - and even slavery forts in Ghana!
This is nothing new for Europeans. At all. They mastered it and exported it.
One last thing…..For those with a taste for Empire bot schadenfreude - check out Meirshiemer on Piers Morgan recently. The poor man was almost in tears as John rubbed his nose in it. Incomparable joy! 😂
Hopefully many governments of the world learn from this extremely brutal yet avoidable war and theft against Ukraine by the U.S. Hopefully, Americans learn from it as well. What these monsters of capitalism do to others, they will/are doing to their own citizens. There is only one thing that motivates these kind of planned exterminations like Ukraine and Gaza. Lust. Lust for wealth and power. Now, off they go to the Far East. Do....not....fight....for......them. Do not believe a word they say. DEM or GOP, they do not speak for their citizen's interests, Taiwan's interests, only their own insatiable lusts. Have they not started already? Their mercenaries will be ineffective there. My prediction is, they will crawl in the dirt if they have to in order to join the new power, throwing their own under the bus. Beware.
“A much more favourable peace was available in March 2022, but the US and UK sabotaged it and the Europeans remained quiet.”
What’s the evidence for this claim?
Kukeba, who participated in the negotiations in 2022, claims that this notion of a favorable peace being available is wholly false.
From the Gideon Rachman interview in the FT 11/24/24
Kuleba was intimately involved in the talks with the Russians, so I ask him about it. He sighs in exasperation. “There was no peace settlement to be had in 2022 . . . I’ve heard this argument everywhere, in Africa, in Asia and even in America. They say, ‘But you were close to peace, and the bloody west did not allow you to do it, because the west wants you to fight until the last Ukrainian.’”
This commonly held view is a complete inversion of reality, according to Kuleba. “Knowing our western partners, who I cherish and appreciate very much,” he smiles, “if there was the slightest chance in 2022 to end the war, they would have pushed down on our shoulders and said, do it.”
The Russian peace proposals were, in his view, completely unserious. “They even had one provision that all Ukrainian heavy armour had to be placed in warehouses and these warehouses should remain under the control of the Russian forces . . . So the plan was clear. Neutralise Ukraine, stay where they are in Ukraine, demilitarise Ukraine. And then make the final shot.”
A peace agreement was actually signed in 2022. Is that not the agreement that Boris Johnson ultimately destroyed? Glenn has reported on this fact many times.
- I consider this to be a tacit admission that NATO lost.
- I more and more draw the conclusion that NATO + US never wanted to the Ukraine to win this war. Publicly the Ukraine was told it was to join NATO. But behind close doors it was told it wouldn't join NATO anytime soon.
- So, what was then the purpose of this war ? I fear that the EU + NATO + US wanted to "rob Ukraine blind", to steal all its mineral wealth without any russian and even ukrainian interference. And the Ukraine would receive nothing at all. Nihilistic capitalism at its best.
- And these more than 3 years of war seem to have cost "the West" some $ 500 billion. Ouch & OMG. And what was the "return on investment" of all this money for the West ? Very little, if even there was a benefit at all.
The Western rulers have told us what this war was all about. They wanted to destroy Russia, so they could break it up into seperate regions. Then steel all the resources from the most resource rich country on the planet. What Ukraine has is chicken feed compared to what Russia has. They thought they destroy Russia financially with their illegal tens of thousands of sanctions. Leaving it impossible to be able to carry on fighting. When this failed they doubled & trembled down still believing in their fantasies of destroying Russia. Ukraine is & has never been of any importance to these criminals & their main goals.
- No, the war was meant to weaken Russia as much as possible because they knew they couldn't defeat Russia and then tear it up in multiple countries similar to what happened to Austria Hungary after WW I.
- A tacit aim was to weaken Ukraine as much as possible as well and to corrupt the country even more. So, it would become even more subservient.
Wonderful summary of THE TRUTH!
Great words Glenn, I just wish the majority of my country knew the truth & not the lies they are still being told 24/7 today.
A very good article. The truth is summarised in these sentences you have written: "Is this an unfair and one-sided peace by taking into account Russian security concerns and largely ignoring valid security concerns of Ukraine and its great suffering? Yes, it is. But this is also the consequence of losing a war".
I want to ask Glenn (or anybody) whether this should also apply to Israel and the Palestinians, in particular Gaza. Trump, it seems to me, is being consistent. He is recognising that wars are about winning and losing and not about fairness. He also recognises that wars kill and peace is better for ordinary people no matter the rhetoric of their leaders. He states that Gazans should accept defeat and move elsewhere.
I don't like that but it seems to me a reality given that for Israel Trump will not end support as he sees this as the US having supported the winning side. He will end support for Ukraine as he sees this as supporting the losing side.
I've tried posing this to others on various YT channels but no-one answers. Am I missing something crucial? Because the people who appear happy for peace in Ukraine on these Trump terms are not happy with the Trump terms for Gaza. Yet there is a consistency here and Israel too has security concerns.
Are you seriously trying to say what happened in Gaza was a war? I'll remind you Palestinians don't have aircraft, 2,000 lb bombs, air defences, tanks, military vehicles or an army for that matter. So how can you try & say it was a war? Say it like it was, it was genocide purposely targeting civilians, hospitals, schools, refugee camp sites, withholding international aid the lists go on & on. Do you believe if you were on the receiving end of what has been done on Gaza. You'd call it a war?
Thank you for engaging with me. I can understand your anger at my terminology and even more so with my argument here. I should perhaps have used the word tragedy rather than war, but I think the word war applies better because I am referring to winners and losers and the reality of such tragedies.
I can see that what Israel has done is commit a terrible tragedy and that many in the West are complicit and the whole thing is very one sided, ...... but given where we are taking into account the very firm US support, as confirmed by Trump, that Israel has I cannot see this ceasefire continuing beyond the point where all Israeli hostages are released. Then what now is the realistic solution for the poor people of Gaza? Should they continue as Ukrainians have to date fighting and dying?
I cannot realistically see the Palestinians winning this "war" if the US continues with its support for Israel. The size of the tragedy, the genocide will simply grow. And as far as I can tell no-one else is capable of stepping in in a meaningful way to prevent this. All this time I had been hoping something would happen to stop all the killing, the maiming, the destruction ...... permanently.
And right now, this Trump plan seems to be all that's on offer.
The only way Israel/US "win" in Gaza is if they kill everyone there. Look what the US did to Vietnam. The Vietcong dug in, persisted, and won. Hamas has done the same thus far against far greater odds. Israeli society is more likely to collapse before they can finish the job.
Thank you for your response. That is a possibility. But it will entail far more Palestinians being killed and lots more destruction.
In a sense I think you are saying the side that "wins" is the one who fights until the other side collapses whilst also sustaining significant loss themselves. In Israel's case this may be more economic loss and in Gaza's more people and infrastructure.
Perhaps then, no-one really wins at all. It's more than tragic.
I guess I'm a peace-nik at heart and find the dying of so many very difficult to take.
I am all for peace, but I agree with your above critics that in the case of Palestine, it is a genocide going on, which is a war crime and a crime against humanity. The World Court has said so and we have all watched it happen. I support the Palestinians. If you think there is any equivalency between what Israel is doing to the Palestines and what the Resistance is doing in REAL self-defense, I think you are immoral. Israel must be punished for its crimes and the U.S. must cut off all support for the murder of thousands by the IDF and the Zionist fanatics. That's it and the Palestinians have indicated many times that it is non-negotiable. I agree with them. You are no peacenik if you support genocide.
Thank you for your remarks. You are of course perfectly entitled to think of me as you wish, but I think you do me a dis-service in suggesting I support a genocide or that I am immoral.
Wow Jennie - you are brave indeed.
Thanks for your perspective. I understand what you are getting at and will have to sit still with it for sometime to see how it eventually "sits" with me. It sure adds a twist to any narrative out there... Maybe you are the one who is "seeing things clearly". My knee-jerk thought is the Palestinians need a break.
Thanks for jolting me...
Thanks Jeremy. It's nice you are prepared to mull over what I have written and have grasped where I'm coming from.
Some of the comments have been a bit bruising, but that's fair enough when you ask people to consider something that's not been articulated elsewhere. I hadn't quite thought of it as jolting people, but I can now see that I have!
Some comments, though, have been very interesting, and others like yours, most kind.
Absolutely no comparison.
First, as Davy points out below, Zionist annihilation of Palestine is not a war, it's a colonial genocide.
Second, the suggested solution in Ukraine does not involve rounding up and moving all Ukrainians to Bulgaria, or Poland.
Third, many Ukrainians will welcome being merged into Russia--they are, historically, ethnically, culturally, linguistically part of Russia and are Russians.
Ukrainians fell in with a bad crowd (NATO, UK, USA) and were empowered, and prodded, to make stupid decisions.
A much more apt comparison of Palestine and Ukraine is:
The Zionists in West Asia are similar to NATO/UK/USA in Ukraine--they are outside usurpers (some very few with genealogical origins in the area) who have empowered and prodded Israel to make stupid decisions.
They are the interlopers causing and waging non-stop violence against the natives. If they would leave, then the locals would settle things on their own.
It's not Palestinians who should be re-located. It's the Zionists. How about a nice desert in the Australian outback?
Why Australia 🦘? No they are a threat to the 'roos! Take them to America 😁 maybe Wyoming. Or Alaska!
Seriously - Israelis must be removed from Palestine.They hate and fear Arabs! How on earth do they think they will survive surrounded by them.
Remove these terrible people. They are the cause of the problem.
"Second, the suggested solution in Ukraine does not involve rounding up and moving all Ukrainians to Bulgaria, or Poland."
True, but only because most have already moved to Bulgaria or Poland.
Thank you for your response. Of course, every war, every human event is never a carbon copy of another. I had thought of the one big difference you mention: ... that Ukrainians are not being forced to relocate and can stay under Russian rule if they choose to.
And yes, it's the Israelis who are the interlopers. In my moments of wishing the past to have been different I often think Israel should have had a bit of US territory but of course the US wanted that interloper in the Middle East to do its bidding. So we are where we are.
Nothing is at all fair about this situation.
You are being unkind to Australia! If there was the slightest chance of Israelis being relocated I would suggest the US. Don't they have deserts too? :-)
But seriously, although I understand and appreciate the differences you have pointed out, you appear not to have taken account of the solid US support for Israel. It seems watertight. Trump, in this respect is the same as Biden. This is the really big difference between Ukraine and Israel.
As I'm really a bit of a peace-nik I can't help but see a plus to Trump's plan which allows for Palestinians to survive .... elsewhere and in security. Even if (as another person has said to me) Israel's economy collapses as the Palestinians bravely fight on and somehow win ...... they will never have that security unless the US gives in. I suppose I just don't see that happening. And that fighting on will come at a terrible cost.
Forcibly relocating a human population won't result in "security."
Palestinians are not sheep or cattle complacently moving from one grazing ground to the next. Neither are Jordanians or Egyptians (or Australians) just passive receptors of Zionist relocation operations.
No. There is one irritant in the body of West Asia--one arrogant and attacking foreign body constantly invading and expanding.
American support of Zionism, from both parties, is purchased and coerced. As we're seeing now, introspection and auditing, bringing dirty little secrets to light, are great disinfectants. Who would have ever thought USAID would dissolve? It won't take much digging or auditing to reveal the extent of Zionist control over American politicians and government. MIGA ain't MAGA.
Jennie - just no!
The differences between the very poor examples you used are glaring - you must be wearing 😎.
Another fact is that the Palestinians aren't going to leave. They will fight and you, that is - the US will have to kill them all. Israel at least will be happy about that.
How does the US plan to keep Gaza - it's obviously going to give it to Israel!
Another point - Israel did not win this 'genocide'.
Israel had to withdraw because of the unacceptable level of IDF fatalities.
Hamas is even stronger, the Palestinians have not been cowed. They really will die on their land. They won't move voluntarily because they know they won't be allowed back.
Don't ever accept what is evil. What NATO/EU/US/Zelenski did to ethnic Russians and attempted to do to Russia was evil. Russia did not accept this and we, the US, failed. I agree it's better to accept this outcome. What the Israelis did, and are still doing, to the Palestinians since 1947 is evil. It's genocide, Zionism and fascism. This can never be accepted, regardless whether the US supports it or not. Better that the whole world experience nuclear Armageddon than such evil be accepted. Trump would be more consistent if he stood for what is right rather than might.
I have indicated above why your claim to be a peacenik is phoney. The more you repeat this claim, the stupider you sound.
Thank you for your further remarks and additional views about my character. I wish you a good rest of the day.
By your illogic, society should just let organized crime and drug lords take over after initial resistance fails to stop them. Fuzzy overgeneralizations such as yours are the death of logic.
You're either ignorant, naive, or not very bright. Next time, try to analyze the situation from a moral context. The Israelis justify genocide with some overgeneralized historical imperative. From that standpoint, Trump's support for the Israelis is both immoral and illogical.
I also think the quoted paragraph is a bottom line. As for comparing Gaza with Ukraine, both Israel and Ukraine could have had security if there was no meddling from the West starting after the end of WWII ( if not earlier). Everything else is different, as Davy and others pointed out.
Russia isn’t forcing Ukrainians to leave Ukraine.
And the slaughter Israel committed on Gaza was a mass murder.
See the difference?
Imhpo, the recent events have proven that in contrast to all the idealistic (often deceitful and fals) preaching, the reality is that "Might Makes Right".
The Russo-Ukainian War was partly the consequence of those idealistic, self-assertive elites that did not want to (1) Listen to, (2) acknowledge, (3) negotiate the frequently repeated and more and more vociferously expressed Russian frustrations (see Putin speech at 2007 MSC). "Putin is bluffing", they said. Eventually Russia put the tanks forward and hit the Table "No More!". :Putin is weak". they said (Russia wasn't). "Russia is weakened" they said (in 2024 Russian growth rate was higher than the US or EU growth rates).
Going to Gaza. While many try to make comparisons (based on Moral & Ethical principles - which are reasonable, but not necessarily realistic) with the Russo-Ukrainian War, such comparison are again idealistic and do not consider the realistic principle that "Might Makes Right". I personally don't see where the very tragic Palestinian situation will develop (too many local and international players and uncertainties). But again "Might Makes Right". So we'll have to wait and see while we express our opinion about that situation (they matter, a very tiny bit).
Thank you Ferenc. The reality is most unfortunately as you so succinctly sum it up: "Might makes right" and it has been this way for a considerable portion of humankind's existence.
I too am at a loss as to how the Palestinian situation can be resolved. It seems my trying to see some merit in the Trump solution has met with some very firm kickback in the comments here. Only to be expected. It's a very emotional issue.
Glen Deisen. What an excellent article - as Meirshiemer put it all those years ago……. Ukraine will be led down the primrose path to destruction. Quite so. We had to endure 3 long years of listening to fools & knaves serving up the kool-aid, and drinking copiously from the cup themselves. Politicians, media, NGOs, thinktanks, the whole panoply of the Empire of Lies. Even in alt media I’ve had to listen to clowns talking about Russians fighting with shovels, Russians looting toilets to take back home, Russia is a gas station, Russian soldiers are all drunk, North Koreans, blah blah blah…… Ukraine will win! Ukraine is winning! It’s a stalemate! Ukraine lost. Ooops. Population halved, 800k dead, millions with serious injuries, huge productive areas lost forever, no NATO, no security guarantees (except those provided by Russia). The very survival of Ukraine as a state now waits on the pleasure of the hard-nosed realpolitik apparatchiks of the Russian state. Bet the average Ukrainian wishes that an Azov sniper had taken out Nuland at Maidan.
Jennie: Yes, you are missing something……. Hamas won, not Israel. Palestinians know that, and so do the Arab states. More importantly, Israelis know too - read the English translations of their media). I said at the very start of this latest iteration of the struggle, that when it was over, thousands of Hamas fighters would come out of the rubble, and the victory parades would commence. Is important to revisit the aims & objectives of each side, at the start. Every Hamas objective has been obtained (ceasefire, IDF withdrawal, civilians to return to where they were living before it started, expansion of international aid). All that was in the peace agreement that both sides signed. Israel’s objectives were a) completely destroy Hamas, b) move the entire Gaza civilian population out of the territory, and c) release all its ‘hostages’ thru military means. The only thing Israel succeeded in was committing genocide, increasing support for Hamas, and earning the undying contempt and even hatred of billions of people, and the vast majority of states across the globe. Now, having said all that, I do expect hostilities to restart this weekend, since Israel has been violating the terms of the ceasefire (it always does), and Hamas have called them out - suspending prisoner releases. My guess is that Netanyahu and his genocidal Govt, cannot bear the drip drip humiliation of 3 prisoners being released weekly, with all the attendant ballyhoo, goodie bags, and released ‘hostages’ getting straight onto Israeli TV to regale the audience with tales of how well they were treated. Changing the terms of the ceasefire by suddenly demanding that all Israeli prisoners be released at once, this weekend, kinda does suggest that. I’m not sure why the IDF thinks it can do any better now, than it did over the previous 16 months - it threw everything at Hamas, in a tiny 25x5 mile strip of land, and ended up strengthening Hamas (ask Anthony Blinken), and weakening the IDF. Of course they bombed the place to rubble, but any resumption of that is just rearranging the rubble. Gaza is a mostly urban environment, and for that kind of combat you need top notch Infantry (see Russia), not the diaper army Israel put in there. So, the war will go on, and Hamas will still be there this time next year, Israel’s internal divisions will have metastasised further (all those ‘hostage’ families that had the rug pulled from under them by Netanyahu), another 500 IDF will be dead (5,0000 with life changing injuries), Israel will have been found to have committed genocide at the ICJ, further ICC warrants will have been issued for Israeli officials, and still none of Israel’s objectives will have been achieved - just a great big hole, dug even deeper.
Ukraine is a case in point Jennie. That benighted country has been comprehensively Empire wrecked. Just like Meirshiemer said it would be, all those years ago. 🫣
I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said there Jennie. A bit of clarification……. when I say Hamas won, I say that only in the sense that they have won this particular 15 month battle. I do believe the effect of this is to weaken Israel at the strategic level, but yes, strategically it is a stalemate of course. As long as Israel remains as a settler colony of a superpower, then it cannot on any realistic timeframe, be eradicated. How ever many guns & bombs it needs, they will always be provided; however many loan guarantees, they will always be provided; however catastrophically the economy collapses, it will always be propped up; and however much diplomatic isolation builds up, it will always be protected. However…….. I see two ultimately fatal problems winding their way down the rocky road. 1: Emigration. Israel is now a seriously divided country (and I’m only talking about Jewish Israelis here), it’s not a safe place to raise families, and it’s ceasing to be a liberal democracy. All the evidence I’ve seen seems to point to around 500,000 having left, and I think many will not come back. Perhaps a long slow demographic death may be baked in now, with the most productive citizens saying goodbye, leaving a hard core settler/religious base - many of whom do not work, and many of who will not fight. 2: Straightforwardly, the general collapse of a US Empire butting up against serious Imperial overstretch, apocalyptic levels of debt, and a developing geo-strategic situation that Thucydides would have recognised very well.
Thank you again for another set of well considered observations Steve.
Yes, that's something to take account of: that the divisions within the Jewish Israeli population will eventually lead to its slow collapse. I had not realised that 500,000 may have already left. You are right: many will not go back to a country that offers so little security.
In some ways that's like the Ukrainians that have become refugees. Many of those will not return for similar reasons.
Thank you for your very considered reply Steve. Yes many people think as you do about what has developed over the last 15/16 months. And many believe that the war will go on. That I suppose is what is so tragic ........ that in this seemingly never ending battle both sides will continue to suffer until one side completely collapses. I find it difficult to see where we are as being a win for Hamas. It seems to me that we have more of a stalemate.
It also seems to me that if we discount Trump's relocation attempts at saving Palestinian lives what you and others suggest will be the outcome ..... and most are hoping it will mean the end of Israel albeit at a very steep price for the Palestinians.
Nearly everyone responding to me agrees with you ..... and believe that this is a price the Palestinians are prepared to pay.
Losing territories? The coup junta has waged war and killed more than 15000 people in the Donbass region, so why should the Kiev regime regain Donbass. not to say the Crimean Peninsula, whose inhabitants have almost all voted for affiliation with Russia, and like Donbass has been threatened and shelled by the US and EU backed coup regime?
And "Russia´´s "illegal and unprovoked invasion"." What happened before Russia finally intervented - after 8 years?
An illegitimate coup in which a legal democratically elected and OSCE-monitored government was overthrown.
Don´t the EU establishment, the right wing, the centre and the so-called left know this?
And does this allied criminal gang not believe that Russia, like the the EU, have the same legitimate right to security?
Thank you for this great summary.
The dust of confusion about the Trump administration policy concerning the Ukrainian and Russian war are lifting to the bright side and leaving Zelensky, the Biden’s, EU and UK in shame.
It is the shame of the US (!!!) and only after that the shame of Zelensky, Biden, EU and UK!!
It was the US that pushed (against the opposition of the EU) the NATO Membership of Ukraine at the April.2008 NATO Summit. It was the US that placed CIA bases in Ukraine. It was the US that pushed its EU mignons to support this crazy nationalistic frenzy. It was the US that demonized Russia and made it into an Evil Empire. UK and the EU just bent over to the US will. Now they are left out to dry.
I believe some of them EU mignons bent over even farther that what they were asked. Too happy to serve their master and to eager to be rid of this Poutine who set such a bad exemple for the European populace.
And indeed they are now left out to dry.
Probably true. But that is a "guiding principle" of our culture: "Serve at the Pleasure of the Master" and even beyond, find his desires and satisfy them "beyond and above". Especially when you have a society that - through a complex system of "selections" - elects pathological Narcissists and Sociopaths as Maters, that wish to receive and rewards "extreme flattery" and servilism.
I agree.
This is so good. arrogant american moralizing has been the bane of the world since Lincoln, who was. master in tarting up immoral purposes with “moral” language. no wonder the USA is such a shitty nation, with that man of blood considered an exemplar.
Leave it to Trump to find the best way not to take the “L” by siding with the winner, Russia. It is almost God like looking down from 10,000 feet and stating the obvious because none of this was his doing. Now he is sweeping away all the destruction that lies before him and demanding the Big Loser, Ukraine, pay the U.S. back for misrepresentation and telling them no money for reconstruction will be forthcoming. The terms he has dealt Ukraine so far even exceed what has been demanded by Russia as he kicks that sick and dying dog Ukraine down the road and into the arms of Russia for failing to deliver on their ridiculous lies. Europe is complicit and is now suffering as well and the punishment for them has just begun with Greenland on the menu.
"Leave it to Trump to find the best way not to take the “L” by siding the with the winner, Russia."
In isolation – putting aside all the dead people for a second – that is actually very funny.
«…The Europeans have learned to speak and frame all issues in the language of morality...»
Here I’d say no, it’s the Europeans who originated this practice.
Under the disguise of morality, virtue and faith, Europeans savagely subjugated and colonized most of the planet, including North America.
For example Trump talks about owning Greenland and that’s crasss….but let’s first understand that Denmark is there owning the place and claiming to be “serving” the Greenlanders by making it a part of the Danish empire, which one included, St Thomas and St John in the what is now the US Virgin Islands colony - and even slavery forts in Ghana!
This is nothing new for Europeans. At all. They mastered it and exported it.
One last thing…..For those with a taste for Empire bot schadenfreude - check out Meirshiemer on Piers Morgan recently. The poor man was almost in tears as John rubbed his nose in it. Incomparable joy! 😂
Hopefully many governments of the world learn from this extremely brutal yet avoidable war and theft against Ukraine by the U.S. Hopefully, Americans learn from it as well. What these monsters of capitalism do to others, they will/are doing to their own citizens. There is only one thing that motivates these kind of planned exterminations like Ukraine and Gaza. Lust. Lust for wealth and power. Now, off they go to the Far East. Do....not....fight....for......them. Do not believe a word they say. DEM or GOP, they do not speak for their citizen's interests, Taiwan's interests, only their own insatiable lusts. Have they not started already? Their mercenaries will be ineffective there. My prediction is, they will crawl in the dirt if they have to in order to join the new power, throwing their own under the bus. Beware.
Nuttjob Generator Outfits are these NGOs.
They are the way the government lies, with plain liar English.
Not gerontology oasisies
“A much more favourable peace was available in March 2022, but the US and UK sabotaged it and the Europeans remained quiet.”
What’s the evidence for this claim?
Kukeba, who participated in the negotiations in 2022, claims that this notion of a favorable peace being available is wholly false.
From the Gideon Rachman interview in the FT 11/24/24
Kuleba was intimately involved in the talks with the Russians, so I ask him about it. He sighs in exasperation. “There was no peace settlement to be had in 2022 . . . I’ve heard this argument everywhere, in Africa, in Asia and even in America. They say, ‘But you were close to peace, and the bloody west did not allow you to do it, because the west wants you to fight until the last Ukrainian.’”
This commonly held view is a complete inversion of reality, according to Kuleba. “Knowing our western partners, who I cherish and appreciate very much,” he smiles, “if there was the slightest chance in 2022 to end the war, they would have pushed down on our shoulders and said, do it.”
The Russian peace proposals were, in his view, completely unserious. “They even had one provision that all Ukrainian heavy armour had to be placed in warehouses and these warehouses should remain under the control of the Russian forces . . . So the plan was clear. Neutralise Ukraine, stay where they are in Ukraine, demilitarise Ukraine. And then make the final shot.”
LOL! Kukeba? An interview in the FT?? That's your evidence to the contrary? Risable. You are obviously not a serious person.
And your evidence in the affirmative?
A peace agreement was actually signed in 2022. Is that not the agreement that Boris Johnson ultimately destroyed? Glenn has reported on this fact many times.
Source?
That would be David Arakhamia, who was the member of the negotiation team on Ukraine side.
- I consider this to be a tacit admission that NATO lost.
- I more and more draw the conclusion that NATO + US never wanted to the Ukraine to win this war. Publicly the Ukraine was told it was to join NATO. But behind close doors it was told it wouldn't join NATO anytime soon.
- So, what was then the purpose of this war ? I fear that the EU + NATO + US wanted to "rob Ukraine blind", to steal all its mineral wealth without any russian and even ukrainian interference. And the Ukraine would receive nothing at all. Nihilistic capitalism at its best.
- And these more than 3 years of war seem to have cost "the West" some $ 500 billion. Ouch & OMG. And what was the "return on investment" of all this money for the West ? Very little, if even there was a benefit at all.
The Western rulers have told us what this war was all about. They wanted to destroy Russia, so they could break it up into seperate regions. Then steel all the resources from the most resource rich country on the planet. What Ukraine has is chicken feed compared to what Russia has. They thought they destroy Russia financially with their illegal tens of thousands of sanctions. Leaving it impossible to be able to carry on fighting. When this failed they doubled & trembled down still believing in their fantasies of destroying Russia. Ukraine is & has never been of any importance to these criminals & their main goals.
- No, the war was meant to weaken Russia as much as possible because they knew they couldn't defeat Russia and then tear it up in multiple countries similar to what happened to Austria Hungary after WW I.
- A tacit aim was to weaken Ukraine as much as possible as well and to corrupt the country even more. So, it would become even more subservient.
Wanting UA to “win the war” is not the same as UA being able to win the war. NATO is not G-d the Almighty.